Purgatory and Contrition

I think it's like we're all cracked pots, and purgatory repairs those pots. Some pots are more cracked than others and need more mending.

Tony, are you saying that the world is full of crackpots?

Sorry...couldn't resist...

The real problem for the doctrine of purgatory is baptism. Baptism, whether for the infant or adult, is a removal of all punishment for sin and thus the immediate attainment of heaven (if the person were to die after baptism and before mortal sin). This happens ex opera operato and, therefore, regardless of the degree of contrition, removal of attachment to sin, et cetera. The problem, then, is obvious -- why does salvation via baptism not necessitate the moral/spiritual perfection (as attained by the canonized saints) required when one has mortally sinned after baptism? Should not baptism instantly transform the person into a saint with the requisite detachment from sin? Otherwise, does not baptism work in a rather forensic manner?

Kevin,

I don't think you have Baptism down quite right, at least not in the way Catholics see it. It can function as a removal of sin (and therefore punishment) if it takes place in an adult - and immediately afterwards that adult is hit by a bus. But the individual in question may also turn around and sin again if they happen to miss the bus...so to speak.

Baptism's practical function is to clean away sin in the form of original sin. It also infuses the soul with Sanctifying Grace. The stain of sin may still be returned to the soul by the sinful behavior of the individual, and with each sin some amount of Sanctifying Grace may be lost. Salvation is, therefore, an ongoing project that requires work throught the lifetime of the person in question. It's a very Protestant view to see Baptism as a one-time cure for sin and ticket to Heaven, but Catholics don't look at it this way.

Also, to take your view of Baptism as leading to instant sainthood, would destroy free will.

Have a look at this for a little more detail on how Baptism functions in relation to sin.

Mark,

I don't know if you quite understood what I was saying. Baptism, in the Catholic view, is a forgiving of the eternal punishment and guilt of original sin and, for adults, all subsequent sin prior to baptism. Baptism not only puts the individual into a state of grace (and thus entry into heaven) but also removes all temporal punishment (and thus no purgatory) due to sin. As the Catechism states:

By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. (CCC 1263)

You wrote,
Baptism's practical function is to clean away sin in the form of original sin. It also infuses the soul with Sanctifying Grace. The stain of sin may still be returned to the soul by the sinful behavior of the individual, and with each sin some amount of Sanctifying Grace may be lost. Salvation is, therefore, an ongoing project that requires work throught the lifetime of the person in question.

So what exactly does baptism do? By saying, "The stain of sin may still be returned to the soul by sinful behavior," you seem to agree with me that baptism entails the utter removal of any stain of sin. But your talk of sanctifying grace tells me nothing. The Catholic position is indeed that baptism brings the person into the sanctifying grace of God, but it is more specific than that.

Salvation is, therefore, an ongoing project that requires work throughout the lifetime of the person in question. It's a very Protestant view to see Baptism as a one-time cure for sin and ticket to Heaven, but Catholics don't look at it this way.

I'm afraid that baptism is most surely a "one-time cure for sin and ticket to Heaven" in the sense that the adult who is baptized and not yet committed a mortal sin will not require purgatory and will enter immediately into heaven, but baptism is not a "cure for sin" insofar as an inclination to sin (concupiscence) does remain and other consequences of sin, namely illness and death, also remain. Salvation may be considered an ongoing project for those who have, after baptism, fallen into mortal sin with its attendant punishments which need to be purged, but that does not negate the fact that baptism itself entails the full and immediate salvation of the individual such that, if he/she died, no purgatory, no further purification, no further process is necessary.

Also, to take your view of Baptism as leading to instant sainthood, would destroy free will.

Alas, you seem to get my point (at least, in part). Also, consider this: infants who die after baptism but while still infants enter immediately into heaven -- no free will involved -- but that's another issue (though related).

By the way, I am Catholic and a convert from Protestantism. I'm just trying to work through these "difficulties" of the faith. I just thought I'd let you know, so you don't think I'm some pompous Protestant apologist trying to convert everyone to Geneva or Wittenberg.

Kevin,

You're right. I don't quite get your point. It was late when I read the original and it had been a long day. I'll re-read both comments later today and get back to you.

One strong suggestion on this: Read the link I posted above. Without understanding where the Church is coming from relative to Sanctifying Grace, we won't be able to get very far.

Mark,

I did read the post you linked to, but it does not address the issue that I am addressing, since I am concerned with what the specific act of baptism does for the individual, especially the adult. I think I fairly well covered the issue in my two entries above, but if you have any questions at what I am getting at, just ask.

Kevin,

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure we have a few common terms to refer to later.

Two things right off.

First, I had some quotes from the Catechism that I was going to post here. Unfortunately, the file became corrupted because of a badly placed magnet. I'll get them this evening.

Second, I don't actually think the Catechism quotes are going to do it for you (they might help, but I think you're looking for something more specific). Because of that, I suspect we're looking at another post or two to cover.

I think I understand your point enough to answer, but I don't think the comboxes are the proper place to do it.

More this evening.

Kevin,

Here are some Catechism quotes that I found. Let me know if these help any. If not, I'm planning on doing a post in the very near future on the Sacraments, and I can start with Baptism.

1425 "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ." But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses," linking our forgiveness of one another's offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish." Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.

1714 Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world.

Now, this may not get at the fact that you're concerned with what the specific act of baptism does for the individual, especially the adult.. It may help, but I suspect you're looking for something more definitive. If that's the case, I'll put off answering until I can put the whole thing into a post of its own.

Hope this helps.

Actually, let's do better than the Catechism and go to the ecumenical council that deals the most with this issue. The decrees of the Council of Florence in the 15th century state:

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above [i.e., through penance on earth or purgatory after death], are straightaway received into heaven....

And later on,
The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.

The complete text of the Ecumenical Council of Florence can be found at:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

Now we both have a common (and dogmatic) reference for the issue.

Kevin,

Ok, but I don't disagree with anything that the Council of Florence says (in these quotes) regarding baptism. I'm still trying to get at the issue, so help me out a bit more.

Is it safe to say that you have to questions:

1. Why doesn't Baptism lead to instant sainthood?
2. What is actually happening to the soul during Baptism?

Also, one clarification: when I said above that Baptism isn't a one time cure-all for sin, I was referring to past, present and future sin. I've seen some Protestant denominations that say something like "once Baptised, then always saved," as though the person in question could not really sin again after that.

Hi Mark, glad you're back up. Now I can finally respond! :-)

With all due respect to His Excellency, I think he is a somewhat mistaken, at least as a matter of Church teaching.

Read CCC 1030-32 on Pugatory, and CCC 1471-78 on indulgences.

Here is a good article on Purgatory at CatholicCulture.org

Catholic Enyclopedia on Purgatory

Contrition

Indulgences

Here's a Catholic Answers article on indulgences that is also pertinent

Purgatory

It is very clear in Catholic teaching that all sins have both an eternal debt (the sin's guilt), and a temporal debt. The Sacrament of Reconciliation absolves the guilt, through the merit of Christ's redemption, but not the temporal debt. That is what the penance assigned by the priest at confession is for, to remove at least part of the temporal debt. This in no way diminishes Christ's sacrifice; that's a commonly heard claim of Protestants, but it confuse two different issues. A parent may forgive a child, and most parents do so immediately, but they will still punish the child. Two different issues. A parent who associates forgiveness with no punishment probably has bratty children.

You seem to be saying that the purification of purgatory is a direct result not of the sin itself, but imperfect repentance for that sin. That is where you are, I believe, mistaken. The Church says that purgatory is a result of temporal debt from the sin itself. There may be circumstances where no temporal debt remains after sacramental confession, such as, perhaps, when suffering and penances already performed have paid for it, or that the person, at the time of confession, has attained such a perfect love of God (which is different from perfect contrition, see below) that all temporal debt is removed. There may be other circumstances, but the point is that all sin has a temporal debt that must be paid in some way, either here on earth or in the next life.

As for contrition; nowhere have I seen it taught by the Church that perfect contrition necessarily involves no attachment to sin. Rather, it means that your contrition arises from the love of God, whereas imperfect contrition, or attrition, entails other motives--fear of the loss of heaven or the pains of hell, shame, etc. It is possible that perfect contrition may coincide with detachment from sin in at least some cases, but they don't necessarily go together.

See CCC 1451-54

Official Church teaching, as far as I can tell, doesn't say that either detachment from sin or perfect contrition necessarily removes the temporal debt for the sin you are confessing. The Church does say detachment from sin is a requirement for obtaining a plenary indulgence, and a plenary indulgence does remit all temporal debt. If you receive a plenary indulgence and die right away, you go straight to heaven (being in the state of grace is also required for a plenary indulgence). But it is the indulgence, not the detachment from sin of itself, that remitts the temporal debt.

It may even be possible that perfect contrition, being a manifestation of love for God and therefore an act of charity, may remit at least some of the temporal punishment due for sin. As scripture says, "love covers a multitude of sins." But that is a mere theologumenon, as far as I can tell. I have seen no Church teaching to that effect. Church teaching does say is that, in the event that a person has gravely sinned and sacramental confession is not immediately available, perfect contrition combined with the intent to go to sacramental confession as soon as possible (or if possible, in the case of emergency situations), absolves the guilt of the sin, the same as sacramental confession and absolution.

I hope this clears things up a little. Sorry I am not more concise.

Since I get Catholic answers on podcast, I probably have the show downloaded on my computer by now. I'll give it a listen.

I didn't assume that you disagreed with the quotes from the council (afterall, you are Catholic and this is an ecumenical council). As for the issue I am addressing and the questions at hand, I would formulate it thus:

The overall question is, indeed, what is actually happening to the soul during baptism? Specifically,

1. Since baptism entails the forgiveness of all sin, both original and personal, including the attendant punishments for personal mortal sin (the expiation of which, after baptism, is penance and/or purgatory), why is the soul not sanctified to the extent of one who does endure purgatory or the penitential life of a saint, which, as just stated, is required for post-baptismal mortal failing?
2. In other words, since the state of grace received by the baptized person is such that the person upon death, but prior to mortal sin, would enter immediately into heaven, why is a purging, a detachment from sin, not required?
3. Is not the Catholic teaching on baptism rather forensic, and what does this mean for the integrity of Catholic soteriology?

I know that's a lot, but it gets at the heart of a lot of Protestant objections to the Catholic faith, since Protestants are basically saying, "Why not view salvation in toto the same way you view baptism?" Of course, only the well-educated, theologically-sophisticated Protestant would be able to formulate the issue as I have (therefore, most Protestants harp on supposed Mary-worship, saint-worship, bread-worship, and a crude works-righteousness).

Kevin,

I'm going to defer this for a little while. I'm about to start a post on the Sacraments, with Baptism as the first major post, so hopefully I'll be able to get into it then.

Sorry, but I think this is too big to answer in a combox.

Seamus,

Give me a bit to read the things you cite. I can't do it right now. But at the moment...

You seem to be saying that the purification of purgatory is a direct result not of the sin itself, but imperfect repentance for that sin.

Not really. Purgation is a direct result of the sin itself. The question at hand is whether purgation is necessary for someone who hates sin and has no remaining attachment to it.

I'll admit to a potential error in terminology. The phrase that I've always heard is "perfect contrition". This was defined for me as "a state of perfect contrition." The idea being that you had no further attachment to sin. This is different than regular-ol'-everyday contrition which was defined as a deep sorrow for sin, but not perfect...still with some degree of attachment to sin. All this is different from attrition.

As for contrition; nowhere have I seen it taught by the Church that perfect contrition necessarily involves no attachment to sin.

Listen to that podcast. This was Bishop Morlino's definition - Perfect contrition would be the complete detachment from sin. I even approached it as a hypothetical, figuring perfect contrition wasn't possible for us mere mortals.

With all due respect to His Excellency... As we used to say in the service - don't call me "sir", I work for a living. P-)

I'm going to defer this for a little while.

That's fine. In the meantime, I'll keep pondering in hope of better discerning the Church's teaching here. I'll also need more prayer and pipe tobacco.